This is Reimagining The Future of Higher Education from Studiosity. Your go-to podcast with remarkable education leaders, sharing personal stories from their experience in and around the sector, including reflection and evidence for progress in the sector. With your host, Professor Judyth Sachs, former DVC Learning and Teaching at the University of Sydney, Deputy Vice-Chancellor and Provost Macquarie University and Special Advisor in Higher Education at KPMG and now Chief Academic Officer at Studiosity.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
It gives me great pleasure to be talking to the President of University of Wollongong in Dubai. And, it's Professor Mohamed Salem Zein. So, Professor Zein, thank you for giving me time this afternoon. You've been at, Wollongong Dubai for quite a while and, 2015 as President and before that, 2004. But I don't want to introduce you. I would like you to tell us your, your career and, how you've got to be where you are now.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And it's really a pleasure to be with you this morning. I'm not sure if my career with Wollongong was planned. I was, was I, if I can say, minding my own business working for IBM in Toronto, Northern Toronto and, I got this call from the head-hunter that Wollongong is building, they already had the operation for ten years then in Dubai, and they're building more, STEM related computing and engineering programs and attracting faculty members. And, and my wife liked the idea of moving to Dubai as a middle ground between east and west and, and work. And since then, I've never looked back. So this year was 20 years with, with Wollongong in Dubai. Well, I don't know how much, I'm not very good at telling a story about myself, but I sometimes reflect on a bit the journey. It came, my journey is a very, a bit complicated because it's cross country, it's cross culture. I was born and raised in a place that no one, very few people would intuitively put on the map. A place called Mauritania. It's north west Africa. It's the country with a very, interesting population. It has, Arabic component, has a very good also West African, dimension where the native people, Arabs, has pushed in that part of the world over the years, but for over centuries, it's a, you grow up in that environment in a very multicultural, multicultural environment. So, ended up going to a much more multicultural country for education, Canada in, between the French side of Canada and English side of Canada. And so I think that's very, very enriching and ended up in Dubai. They say Dubai has more than 200 nationalities. So it's a, it's a kind of, that sort of, work. So, I went, I've studied originally from an early age I was more into STEM and ended up studying computing, at all, all the way, and then, did a PhD between the University of Montreal and the University of Waterloo, and jointly funded by IBM Canada. And that's how really, so my PhD also is, is more of a, in an industrial environment than a very traditional PhD, and that has kept impacted a lot my career as an academic. I've always been more leaning toward applied side of teaching, applied side, and practical things. And because of that, yes, that's, that's why I'm happy to, to add any further clarification or questions you would like.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So that very cosmopolitan sort of, educational experience, and in particular in Montreal, where French and English are their...
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
That's right.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
...the lingua franca. Did you have to write your PhD dissertation in French?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Well I, because I, I studied officially at the University of Montreal and I'm a fluent speaker of French. My master thesis was written in French, but because I was doing my PhD jointly with the University of Waterloo, and IBM, I needed the for graduate studies to give me permission to write it in English. So, it's a very interesting. But in Montreal, everyone is kind of bilingual. But also part of that experience there that I also developed that you see a very, despite the what could be seen from outside as English versus French. But, Canada has very good respect of languages in general, have very good respect of part of the countries and what everyone is adding to the, to enriching the culture of the country. So, the fact that I spoke both English and French, made me really comfortable around Canada. Yeah.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
And so the other, element that makes you unique in the academy is that you've, you've crossed over between the commercial business world and the academy. So talk to me a little bit about how that makes you different and how you navigate the academic world from a, really a business, pluralistic, multicultural perspective.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Well, it's, sometimes when you speak to academics, you have to, to be extremely careful not to look too commercial or too business. They might exclude you from the, if you can call it the club or the, the academics. I think it's, and this is important, for running branch campuses where they are not funded by the Commonwealth. So you need to be constantly mindful of we are, you know, the, the big mission of education, big mission of really bringing education and bringing the Australian really best practices in education to a part of basically what we do, I think, is getting education closer to students. But at the same time, we have to be mindful that to make it sustainable, we need to look at the other side of the story, which is the business, who want to get the best labs for engineering, well we have to be able to afford them, and we have to be, able to afford actually, academics, the most expensive part in running quality branch campuses is to attract quality academics. And when you want to attract quality academics, you have to look up, can they live here? Can they get the right compensation so they can send their children to good private schools, can they get help, insurances. So it is really that side, in my view, that allow us to continue this mission. It's not like when you were funded directly by the government. So it's a stressful thing. It is, something you have to constantly remind colleagues of. But, I really feel the, the mission of education worth everything. That's my view. And really, if you ask me, what's keeping me going on and what's keeping my colleagues here going on, is really this feeling that eventually would able to impact some people's lives that we are really getting a best practice or an experience, a lot of people would not have the chance to get. We're getting close and we are offering it here. And I think, the University of Wollongong, in my view, looking at 17,000 alumni in this country coming from more than 120 nationality. I think that's a great legacy for Wollongong, and a great legacy actually for Australia. Many of the Australian officials who come through the Middle East will tell me that this is playing a bit of, a big part in the soft diplomacy in what Australia is able to, to help the rest of the world with. So it's a, you need that kind of dimension into this. Yeah.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So 30 years for Wollongong, that's some achievement for a, an international campus, transnational campus to be continuing and thriving. In the years that you've been there, how have you seen higher education develop, change and be modified during your tenure, both as a, and academic, but also your tenure as a, as the president?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Um. I think particularly if I look at the region here, higher education has changed from an initial need for just probably undergraduate education or training people to get a first degree, to gradually really the, in particularly the UAE, that is really a big focus here on building a knowledge economy. So the dimension of the possible idea of education, the dimension of research, the dimension of converging, converting that research and entrepreneurial activities to a wealth of the country. I see that as a big change. If I compare the first year when I came in, I came and joined Wollongong in 2004 and had the chance to speak to colleagues who had been with Wollongong before that. It was at the beginning, just a teaching time and a need for teaching. Things have shifted, completely. And the strategy of the, that is level of government, either Dubai or the federal government in the UAE, or the state government in Abu Dhabi, for example, is heavily focused now our knowledge, heavily focused on research. And so it's a maturity. I think the country is maturing and the neighbouring countries also where we, it's a kind of catchment for our students, Wollongong Dubai get about 30% of their students from outside. And about 70% of what we call the international domestic, and domestic. There is that, new really interest in the UAE and Dubai as more than education, that is not only teaching, but rather, engagement with industry, that is research, and that is more having an impact on the community rather than just the initial mission of teaching.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Now, I've asked previous people that I've spoken to, had conversations with to bring an object. That represents their journey to being a learner and a leader. Did you find something that represented your journey as a learner and a leader?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Traditionally people think of gowns and thinks of, university. I like books. And to the point that I'm still a bit traditional when reading, reading papers other than, electronic books. But I still have my PhD, on my desk, thesis, with with all of the traditional old, you know, framing and the way it was binded together. And it's getting a bit yellowish colour in some pages. But that's constantly reminds me of that great times and difficulties. I feel the journey of the PhD for me is quite unique and different. I didn't feel challenged too much by my undergrad. I felt I was top of whatever I'm going through. And, but I felt really, the journey the PhD is the first time where I felt I would do six months of experiment, I would do six months of research and come back with zero result. And I have to come back again and change my strategy, change my focus. And-and I still feel it gave me skills that I didn't have really, more than my undergrad, my undergraduate education. So I have my PhD thesis constantly on my desk. I every now and then show it to students, but not too much.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So that, that being challenged, what-what did you learn from that and what-what-what did you take away from that experience that when you're supervising students, you reflect on?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Yeah. Well, that's an important point, because when we supervise students here, particularly in this part of the world, we often think of, that student here doing HDR or student doing masters degree where they need to do a capstone or undergrad. There is a slight lack of understanding of the, so it's not a matter of just a few months or few years and you get your PhD or you get your capstone. There is a need for reinforcing that you reach a point in your education where we can supervise you, we can help you, we can try to coach you, but you have to start doing things by yourself. You have to do things by yourself. And I think that, that is an important part, in my view, in the maturity of the region here and the maturity of that part of the world we are operating in, and bringing that strict standard of quality, from Wollongong and from the Australian education system is very important. So you're doing the PhD, you have to assume it may not happen if you don't put the necessary effort. If you don't go by the right book, it's not a matter of time and you will get it. And I think, I constantly remind student of that. My actually supervisor a long time ago, he grew up in a German culture, and he would say to me from day one, it's your PhD, not mine. I've done mine. So, so that's a very important, I think, and good contribution that our standards here is Wollongong's standards in this part of the world. And I've heard it from students over and over, is we're bringing that strict understanding of academic integrity and quality to students and understand that it's about learning how to learn. It's about me contributing. And yeah. So yeah, I guess that's a, that's a, that's an area where I feel we contribute quite well in the maturity of students. And by the way, there is a lot of challenges in my view in maturity of students. We've, we think we've seen it now in undergrad. We don't know if it is the Covid generation who didn't go enough to school and do the face to face in high school and came to university. But we did the other day in the education committee discussing that there is definitely a couple of generations joining the university that I'm not yet sure why they're here or they're investing time, they're money in their tuition fees, but they don't seem yet understanding that it's a very serious business, that university is a very big component. And I think that's, that's in my view, one of the challenges currently all universities are facing is, why-why-why are you coming to university? What do you want from university? Do you understand how far can university help and what's the path you need to continue? Yeah.
"...he would say to me from day one, it's your PhD, not mine. I've done mine. So, so that's very important, I think, and good contribution that our standards here is Wollongong's standards in this part of the world. And I've heard it from students over and over, is we're bringing that strict understanding of academic integrity and quality to students and understand that it's about learning how to learn."
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So given this, this sort of students being betwixt, in between, not knowing what they want, but wanting something that they don't know.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Yeah. That's right.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
How is, how is the university responding? How is your university responding to that to, because the student experience is fundamental to students feeling successful?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Yeah. I think we, we feel the burden of and the responsibility. I feel it myself I think constantly. The percentage of people who will end up doing the first degree. And then very few would do a, a second degree, a master degree, and very, very few will end up in a HDR program. So the burden of that and the burden of doing something about it is really part of what keeps me awake literally. What we're doing about it is we are not giving chance for anything to miss out. So we're looking really at the teaching and learning, at the delivery of teaching and learning. What do we do with attendance? Is attendance really, is it reasonable to expect students to attend and take notes the same old way? Or we have to offer the face to face and then offer also supplemented with pre-recorded lectures, supplemented with what we call summary of lectures. It's a burden on academics, but I think we're at the stage where I think we need to provide all sorts of opportunities for students. We, for example, at the university, have created what you call a student success centre. It's a kind of a one stop shop helping the different schools. And the idea is to get colleagues to speak to students who have any sort of stress, any sort of panic, progress or sort of, to try to get in and book for them a time with an academic advisor. Book for them a time with, a head of school or, a senior academic. That's part of that. And also we are rethinking constantly, this issue of assessment, this issue of assessment versus delivery. Are we assessing too much? Are we, are we not paying attention to the final objective which is the outcome? Ultimately, it's that outcome. We get very pleasing information towards the end of the journey of the student in the university. The Ministry of Education in the UAE currently has a survey for graduates, similar to what happened in Australia. Now our students are almost 90% employed within six or seven months and out of the remaining 10%, there is a small portion which is not looking for a job, they're working full time in their business, so that's definitely something on the road, on the way, leading to that, something good happen. But to answer your question, we are really exploring all possibilities. So we have what we call the first-year experience. We have what we call the last year experience. In the last year experience, we're trying to focus on what sort of work integrated learning we can embed in a class and getting industry, particularly our rich alumni network, to come and, speak to students. We're looking really at, the capstone itself as a key component for maturity of students. That's, that component is what we do in the last year or year and a hub and but the first year experience, we ended up sometimes offering traditional contact hours but we offer additional contact hours, but we don't make them compulsory. We allow students who have any sort of difficulty to come to additional hours with top student, honours student, in the office hours. So I think would this be sustainable for a long time for, if the number of students grow up bigger? I'm not sure, but I think we are in a situation where we're trying to say, let's get the first year transition from high school solid, let's get them more independent in the other years, and really focus on readiness for employability. Focus on those internships, focus on capstones also, to combining that. But I feel, there is really a different change and I'm sometimes a bit flat with academics and we are a bit in denial as academics, we've still or some of us, or a good part of us still wanting to deliver the same old way we used to deliver. And the audience has just moved on. The audience is really learning in a different way.
"...we are a bit in denial as academics, we've still or some of us, or a good part of us still wanting to deliver the same old way we used to deliver. And the audience has just moved on. The audience is really learning in a different way."
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So when you think back to your experience as a student and being a successful student, who as an undergraduate, who wasn't challenged, how would you describe the experience of students now? You sort of alluded to it with the post-Covid stuff, but how do you, how do you create an environment for students on campus where they feel engaged not only with the content of the curriculum, but also with growing up? You know, going to university is actually about identity formation and about you as an adult. So what, what sort of observations can you make about what's happening in your university?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
I think those two elements, if you ask me, between challenges with curriculum and challenges with growing up, I would think more it would have to be done or be done in the growing up part. I think high school still provides students who are comfortable in quantitative skills in math, statistics, and English and ready probably for business and quite creative by the way, we have a degree in media and communications is very popular. Students are really creative. But I think that's growing up. In my view, is something as a university we have to, we we have to put more effort in it. We're fortunate here that we operate, the way Wollongong operates in Dubai is we run exactly the same program as we run it in Wollongong. But on top of it, the Commission of Academic Accreditation will ask us to add a general education component. So and that's an area their asking for the history and culture of the region, asking for UAE studies to be covered somehow in the curriculum, and innovation and entrepreneurship. So and that's probably because the legacy of the system used in the UAE is more influenced by liberal arts in the US, type of education. So we have seen when we run, for example, subjects that have a dimension of philosophy and critical thinking. And when we teach the Islamic, for example, history, we don't really we don't teach Islam. We teach more of a comparative study between the different cultures and how in different cultures, science has evolved. Those subjects, for example, we've seen amazing outcomes coming from it. So that idea of having really those, and this subject I just mentioned, we teach it at 300 level. We don't teach it first year and second year. We really want students to have completed two full years of university. And they'll be in a class where some of them are coming from engineering, some from business, some from media, from different, different majors. Same thing happened with the innovation and entrepreneurship. We're not targeting to make people innovative or more innovative than they are, but we're trying them, for them to think of we can create, we can be entrepreneurial. You don't have to wait. I wish in my generation that was enforced more. We were more directed towards tough exams in math and physics, and you have to pass this and pass that. And I think the opportunity is now for people to be more creative, to be more creating their own opportunities to create work themselves. So these are areas that I've seen really helping in maturity of students. But I think we do a lot of other campaigning side on academic integrity. You have to think of the academic integrity constantly. There is no reason if you can't care for an exam or an assignment, well write to the lecturer and say, I'm not ready. Whatever it takes. But let me, buy me some time, though. I don't know. Lose some marks. But you still get the value of doing your own work. I think that's also another very important area that you're investing in your future. Don't let the pressure of assignments, don't let the pressure of exams and the ease of having content online, get you into that route of, academic integrity. You should, I don't think there is enough yet that we do. I think we need to do more. And, we're revising currently our pathway freshmen. So most of the student in this part of the world will have to do a one year freshman before doing a typical Australian B.S. degree. And within that program we, we can do more, in my view, to promote study skills and university life and also why university? Yeah. So there is, there is a lot of things I think we can do there. But equally, I think from the academic side, our colleagues on the other side, I think the challenge is to understand that the delivery of teaching must be different. I think the heavy assessment is not anymore, actually is not adding great value in achieving the learning outcome. And students are exposed to a lot of content. So they want to come to class. They probably want you to be able to give them something very different than what's available and to be more engaging and more interactive. Our computer science, has tried in their first year experience a very interesting model of saying not doing lecture and tutorial. We do labs separate but lecture and tutorial, they've experimented for the last year of mixing this and doing some lecturing and some engagement or workshop, the pass rate in introductory subjects in programming went very high. So that and I think that's where capturing the lack of focus in some student, the lack of interest in attending and taking notes and so keeping them busy. Once they pass that first year, they usually get on well with the traditional university independent learning.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So if you could change one thing to enhance the student experience. So I'm going to give you a wand.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Just one?
Prof Judyth Sachs:
What would you, what would you do to enhance the student experience?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
I would, I would definitely, I would definitely work harder in terms of professional development, in terms of engagement with the academics to understand that the world around us has changed. I think, I think to some extent the academic community, it's not only Wollongong or Dubai. I think I've seen across many other universities. I feel a bit of denial of the need to shift to a modern approach. And I'm not saying just using technology on the course, but I think it's more of a, addressing the curiosity of the student in a way that gets them to believe this is a very interesting experience. This is not just a journey to get a piece of paper and then try to find some professional training data to get a better job, but it's really, I think, I feel that hasn't been addressed more. I think we're doing a lot of work to help students with capturing lectures and other supporting things, and pretty much now for example Wollongong library provide our student in Dubai with the same rich amount of online content. They would, they would find in Australia so they can access it anywhere. But I feel we need as an academic, probably as a whole academic society, we need to start thinking really of the subject we're teaching. Do we need all of that content? Do we need all of these contact hours? And do we need to still push a lot? Or what can we do really as the essential and coach students and help them really learn it by themselves? I just feel we might, we might be in some sort of denial, academics in general, insisting on our same old way of doing things, and the world around us is just changing so fast. I, I come from the computing background, and there was days where you have to write every single line of code. Now you drag and drop models and the computer generates your code. So it's shifting towards more analysing the big picture, analysing spending time on the most important things other than the small things. There is a bit of similarity between that and academia, probably my colleagues, academics would have all sorts of different opinions. But, I think we, we should not become obsolete. We should not allow, you know, I heard that there is a very interesting summit happening annually here called the Dubai Government Summit. And this year they bought a senior AI expert and he said the IQ of the [inaudible], the future AI software is going to be multiplied by ten. And that could lead to basically getting your own tutor that adopt to what, your way of learning and you have difficulties and so would we need to be augmenting that, not fighting it probably.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So then what that also requires is for students to be curious.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
That's right.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
And how do we engender a sort of a curiosity, to what's happening around them, but also what's happening globally?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Yeah. I think, that that's a very important point I get for example, being regularly participating in open days when you speak to potential students and their parents. And you get this question say my son would do mechatronic engineering, so why would he do it? Why can't he do, four month online training on robots? And, so what's the value? And, I think that issue is probably student and their parent not understanding necessarily the key values of the university are to [inaudible] on top of it, but you get exposed in three years or four years honours degree to colleagues with various experiences, with various research interests, with their own network and industry, and they can bring to the table really how what is learned at the university allows you to be flexible and to work in different places. A bit to look at that curiosity of the student. I think some of the students are more curious now coming from high school than before, than other probably previous generations, but they're curious in different areas. So for example, you find that there is sometimes the question they ask looks like they want a generic degree, not really a specialised degree. They want a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And university is still a bit rigid. You can do a double degree, you can do a minor, but that's the extent of, of what you can do. But I think university has to entertain that curiosity and has to help with it, other than, so you see the program sometimes, some of these programs have room for very few number of electives. Which means we're kind of forcing you to go in one way. On one path. Why can't we start looking at reducing that core as much as possible in the degrees to the key essential things, but allowing a more reshaping your degree further? I know there have been few experiences, different parts of the world actually around it. But in my view, this, this all comes to the, this change that's happening around us in terms of the student, the way they, their interest, the way we're still teaching and, you know, the way industry is expecting people to come ready. And we haven't reconciled all of that yet. I think, we do, and obviously we have our student are having a very good placement rate. And actually Wollongong in Australia have a very good actually reputation in terms of getting students ready for, for, for employment. But I think we are at the time, if you ask me, what's the challenges for the sector, it's are we going to be here ten years if we don't look at these things? Are we going to be attracting the same number of people, or people are just going to bypass university or some other alternative?
"I think some of the students are more curious now coming from high school than before, than other probably previous generations, but they're curious in different areas. So for example, you find that there is sometimes the question they ask looks like they want a generic degree, not really a specialised degree. They want a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And university is still a bit rigid."
Prof Judyth Sachs:
And how do you answer your question?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Personally, I think we need to do something about it. I really think we need to do something. And interestingly, even though I'm worried about the maturity of stuents coming from high school and, how they see university and how they're, by the way, probably in, in a context which is very different, for example, if you're an Australian university and you get the bulk of your students coming from the same system, we get on average students from 25 different academic categories. Some of them coming from, for example, the IB, where they have been pushed to a lot of out-of-the-box thinking. Some of them come from British curriculum, where it is very much specialised since year ten or something like that, some of them from the Arabic curriculum, the Indian, Russian, the Pakistani, the African. So get these people into year one and try to think they will all respond in the same way is a challenge for branch campuses, I think. We and we do a lot of work there to make sure that we, what we're trying to say, well, here's the Australian typical model where we empower you, we want you to take responsibility for your learning, we don't do too much lecturing, but we do also tutoring. We do a labs component. We that gets the student into that culture of kind of the Aussie type of learning. I've been asked in the past, is there actually an Australian way of learning different? I think there is. I think there is a bit of a, trust in students, dealing with students as really partners, as colleagues and empowering them, which is very pronounced in the Australian I think system. But it's, it's really, that I feel that is a big challenge, but equally and I'm pretty sure our curriculums and the way we teach I think it is time to have a bit of a debate around it.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
I agree. I agree.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
I think so.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
I've got two, two questions to go. What advice would you give, you're giving a graduation address. What advice would you give to the students who are graduating, at the end of their degrees?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
It's, I like, I like every now and then when I do that and speak to, and speak to our students. I would like them to add a value to society, I'd like them to think of it as I'm not just going to be rich myself. Or I'm going to be very famous and yeah, publishing in higher journals or other outstanding. I would like our graduates to be going out and saying, I'm going to make a difference. And if you look at these graduates, for example, come from so many nationalities, a lot of these expat came to this part of the world, worked extremely hard in basic jobs to get those children to go to a modern, well-established university. And you would like to see, to see them giving back to that. I myself keep in mind the country I grew up quite underdeveloped. The opportunity I got there, and I'm constantly saying at some point I have to go back. I have to be able to, to help others to do something to get to a similar journey or something. So I would like really our graduates to be able to give to society in any way they want, but not to be only about himself. Yeah. So that's a quite often, because if you do that you end up, if you're only, there is an Arabic saying that says if you only focus on yourself you will find it hard to deal with it. If, if you, if you have a bigger ambition you'll be able to handle under that.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
And then the final question is what advice would you give to your younger self?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Oh. I had a bit, I had a career in industry and a career and actually spent a couple of years with the government. I think the career in education is rewarding. But in a different way. I think if you want to choose an academic career, it's probably not going to be the source of wealth, you probably have a decent life, but I think you have to be at peace with the idea that you're going to be patient, you're going to be, looking after others, looking after students, when you, when you deal with students different cases, both cases, students with talent. You have to constantly keep in mind that you are not here to judge them. You're not, you're here to empower. You're here to help. You have to listen sometimes to excuse me if I say, to nonsense, but you have to. So I think there, there is that kind of preparation for this career. It's a very rewarding career. But you have to choose it the right way. It may not be the career for everyone.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So would you do it again?
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Oh, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Even though coming from a practical engineering background. Yes, I would do it actually, in my current position, I, the last 3 or 4 years I haven't been able to teach because of the work. But I'm talking to the one of the schools to teach a post-grad, so I just feel that it relieves me from stress. It's it's, I feel, that's a very important part of our career. Yes, I would do it. I would do it definitely.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Thank you for a most entertaining, enjoyable, and enlightening conversation. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as, as I have.
Prof Mohamed Salem Zein:
Yes I did, I did, and thank you very much. And I think this is really, I would love to have time to listen to more and more of these podcasts you do, because I think it kind of, bring a very interesting breadth of our experiences as an academic and allow us to think also and know that all of us are on the same boat eventually and with the same mission. Thank you very much.
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